I received a comment on Complementarianism and posted a response. If this topic is of interest to you, please read the post and the comments by clicking (here).
Here is my response - which may seem a bit out of context unless you read the post I am addressing:
Thanks for responding personally. I am still a bit new to the blogosphere and may need to make some adjustments to the settings so as to better moderate any Anonymous postings. Often times, not all the time, such anonymous postings are not meant to do anything but provoke and criticize without allowing any real engagement in the issue. I appreciate that your intentions are not as such.
With regard to your post, I do not see that I have a problem with my assertion that gender roles are “not an issue of capability but of responsibility.” Rather, I see that you have a couple of problems.First, whether or not my statement is in compliance with Wayne Grudem is not the issue. The issue is what does the Word of God say? Second, with that much said, the problem with your citing Grudem is that you did so out of context, or rather with not in enough context to grasp the basic gist of what he was addressing.
Here is the full quote:“God gave men, in general, a disposition that is better suited to teaching and governing in the church, a disposition that inclines more to the rational, logical analysis of doctrine and a desire to protect the doctrinal purity of the church, and God gave women, in general, a disposition that inclines more toward a relational, nurturing emphasis that places a higher value on unity and community in the church (v14)”
Without getting into great detail at this time (I would like to go home and spend the evening with my family), Mr. Grudem did not say that women were incapable or mentally limited in their abilities, even as it comes to teaching, leadership in the church and the analysis of doctrine. I see that you took Grudem out of context and then came to some illogical conclusions. A disposition, as Grudem uses the word, is not about ability, but how one is inclined to go about accomplishing a particular task. He is stating that in general a man’s disposition is better suited than a woman’s for teaching and leading the church. Men, when following the mandates of the Lord, do tend to be better disciplinarians, better teachers and better systematizers of doctrinal truth. It is interesting that with some 2000 years of church history, the great theological thinkers have been men. And before anyone says that is only because men have suppressed women, women of all ages have fought against this and today, in an age where women have the best opportunity to show forth doctrinal prowess, there is yet no true woman theologian who ranks with the likes of Augustine, Calvin, Luther, Spring, Ryle, Hodge, Warfield, or Lloyd-Jones. Even in the contemporary setting no true woman theologian has been noted along with R.C. Sproul, John MacArthur or John Piper. This is not because women are mentally incapable of knowing and understanding such truth, but in the context of communicating and administering this truth, women’s dispositions are not geared like men. In general, a godly woman’s communication of truth, while it may be theologically accurate, does not come across with same authority as that of godly man. Why? Because God ordained it so. God called upon the men to be the communicators of the truth to the congregation at large while leaving opportunity for women to teach one another (in like disposition) and children.
Grudem also stated (this you left out) that a woman’s general disposition is better suited for relational and community oriented aspects of church life. To conclude, as you did, that what Grudem means is that women are “somewhere between and adult man and a child in their ability to be rational and logical” is faulty – it was never about ability, but inclination or disposition. Now here is a statement for you to sink your teeth into. I believe that the Bible presents us with a picture for godly male leadership in the home and in the church that if followed would have godly women lovingly and most willingly desiring to follow such leadership. When this Biblical method of leadership is interrupted or abandoned, the church suffers. The feminization of the church may result in churches that are more relational, more nurturing and big on community, but by and large such churches will be woefully weak doctrinally leaving people with improper understandings of God and worse yet, false assurances of genuine faith. I don’t need anymore proof of the failure of women in leadership in the home and in the church than what we see taking place all around us. And, as men in sin tend to take the path of least resistance, leaving more and more of these leadership positions to women, we are not seeing a revival but yet a further decline in the spiritual well being of the church. Men need to be men and lead, according to God’s Word. Women need to be women and faithful follow their godly heads (fathers, husbands, brothers) as they picture all who follow the true head who is Christ the Lord.I think it takes a tremendous amount of ability for a man to be a faithful and godly leader in the home and at church. I believe it equally takes a tremendous amount of ability for a woman to be a faithful and godly helpmate in the home and at church. No, it is not about ability, but about God-given dispositions and responsibility. God has given leadership responsibilities to men who must seek to faithfully administer those responsibilities. God has given complementary responsibilities to women who must seek to faithfully administer those responsibilities. If the genders wish to cross these responsibilities up, both have the capability to do so, but it will be to their own detriment, to the detriment of the church and in disobedience to God’s Word.
That’s all I have time to cover for now.
Soli Deo Gloria,
Pastor Ed
3 comments:
Well stated.
Hi Pastor Ed,
Here is my ridiculously long reply to you. Unless you have specific comments that you ask me to respond to, I will go away and be a pebble in some other complementarian's boot.
[First, whether or not my statement is in compliance with Wayne Grudem is not the issue.]
Point taken. I was simply pointing out that a major complementarian, and one who was deeply influential in developing the Danvers statement, which you use as a template for your church’s gender policy, has said at least one thing to the contrary of “it’s not about female capability”. (Sorry if that was badly punctuated.)
[Mr. Grudem did not say that women were incapable or mentally limited in their abilities, even as it comes to teaching, leadership in the church and the analysis of doctrine. I see that you took Grudem out of context and then came to some illogical conclusions. A disposition, as Grudem uses the word, is not about ability, but how one is inclined to go about accomplishing a particular task.]
“Disposition” was probably not the clearest term to use to explain the difference between men and women in an area of mental ability. I wonder why Grudem used it?
For instance, what does this sentence really mean: “Polly has the ability to think logically, but her disposition is to be illogical.” Whatever her ability, Polly’s natural tendency, or inclination, is to act in an opposite manner to her ability. Her ability ought to come into question when she persistently is disposed to act in an opposite manner. Do people with innate logical ability have a perpetual desire to act in opposition to their abilities and behave illogically?
If I said, “Ted Bundy had the ability to be good, but his disposition was to commit acts of sociopathic sadism…” would his ability or his disposition be the stronger evidence of his traits as a person?
[He is stating that in general a man’s disposition is better suited than a woman’s for teaching and leading the church. Men, when following the mandates of the Lord, do tend to be better disciplinarians, better teachers and better systematizers of doctrinal truth.]
This is an assertive statement, but it needs proof.
[It is interesting that with some 2000 years of church history, the great theological thinkers have been men. And before anyone says that is only because men have suppressed women, women of all ages have fought against this and today, in an age where women have the best opportunity to show forth doctrinal prowess, there is yet no true woman theologian who ranks with the likes of Augustine, Calvin, Luther, Spring, Ryle, Hodge, Warfield, or Lloyd-Jones. Even in the contemporary setting no true woman theologian has been noted along with R.C. Sproul, John MacArthur or John Piper.]
Let’s assume that theological greatness requires at least three things in addition to natural ability: 1)access to certain types of previous knowledge such as the work of previous theologians and philosophers, as well as scripture 2)an environment that cultivates and nurtures thought, and 3)the ability to express one’s opinions in some form (likely written) that will have a means of survival for posterity.
Please remember that women were almost completely excluded from advanced scholarly life throughout most of history. Elite universities where serious theological scholarship went occurred, were exclusively male. Any woman who wanted to be a theologian would have done so in an atmosphere secluded from other scholars, with limited resources and with virtually no ability to publicize her views. To suggest that a great female theologian could have sprung up under these circumstances is unfair in the extreme.
Why is there no female John MacArthur today? Frankly, I don’t know why there would be one. Are men like Piper, Sproul and MacArthur nurturing female talent? Do any of them have female protegees? Is a worthy female theologian to expect speaking or teaching offers? Will she be able to network in the current environment of male theologians? If the answers to these questions is “no” then it should be obvious why women are not pursuing theology careers.
Maybe women have preferred to devote themselves to linguistics, medicine, administration or other specialties that they can use on the mission field where those skills are welcome in full-time ministry.
[This is not because women are mentally incapable of knowing and understanding such truth, but in the context of communicating and administering this truth, women’s dispositions are not geared like men. In general, a godly woman’s communication of truth, while it may be theologically accurate, does not come across with same authority as that of godly man.]
It would be more accurate to say that women generally are not allowed to speak with authority. Given the opportunity, female evangelists have risen up and spoken the truth to thousands.
This is probably not the time to bring up the fact that numerous male theologians have produced damaging writings and theological movements.
[Grudem also stated (this you left out) that a woman’s general disposition is better suited for relational and community oriented aspects of church life.]
Not only can this not be proven as biblical, but there are a number of scriptural examples to the contrary of this assertion.
[To conclude, as you did, that what Grudem means is that women are “somewhere between and adult man and a child in their ability to be rational and logical” is faulty – it was never about ability, but inclination or disposition.]
All right, I’ll amend my comment: Grudem’s statement essentially means that women are somewhere between an adult man and a child in their disposition or inclination to be logical and rational.
For some reason, that does not make me feel any better.
[Now here is a statement for you to sink your teeth into. I believe that the Bible presents us with a picture for godly male leadership in the home and in the church that if followed would have godly women lovingly and most willingly desiring to follow such leadership.]
If this is true, then why must so much pressure be put on women to submit? Why not forget the women and work on the men?
[When this Biblical method of leadership is interrupted or abandoned, the church suffers. The feminization of the church may result in churches that are more relational, more nurturing and big on community, but by and large such churches will be woefully weak doctrinally leaving people with improper understandings of God and worse yet, false assurances of genuine faith.]
I hear this all the time. Give some direct examples of “feminization” in the church. Specifically I would like to know of things that are outside of biblical example.
[I don’t need anymore proof of the failure of women in leadership in the home and in the church than what we see taking place all around us.]
Men are still running most churches as far as I can see. Any specific examples of females making a hash of things?
[Men need to be men and lead, according to God’s Word. Women need to be women and faithful follow their godly heads (fathers, husbands, brothers) as they picture all who follow the true head who is Christ the Lord.]
Brothers? Are women supposed to assign themselves a near relative as a “head” if no father or husband is available? If I were in this hypothetical situation, I'm wondering how I would broach the subject to my brothers?
[God has given leadership responsibilities to men who must seek to faithfully administer those responsibilities. God has given complementary responsibilities to women who must seek to faithfully administer those responsibilities.]
This seems unduly euphemistic. If one person is a leader, the other is a follower. If one person is a head, the other person is a subordinate.
A woman’s perpetual role is not to initiate and carry out goals of her own, but to assist her male “head” in achieving his goals. Can you understand why women view this as a stripping away of their personal integrity?
Hanan,
I have responded to your comment in my main blog. Please read (More Thoughts on Complementarianism)
Pastor Ed
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